tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post110245124779191082..comments2023-06-27T16:51:05.805+02:00Comments on The Pangrammaticon: The Image and the ItemThomashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1102535760921582812004-12-08T20:56:00.000+01:002004-12-08T20:56:00.000+01:00It seems to me there are three distinct ways of ar...It seems to me there are three distinct ways of articulating words at work here: conjunction (X and Y and Z), preposition (X on Y with a side of Z), and predication (X and Y are on the Z). And I think a "complete thought", which is to say a standard subject-predicate construction (a sentence), will often involve an image and may even imply one (of the fact we're thinking of, Wittgenstein might say). What I want to suggest, however, is, first, that you can have imagery without predication (preposition is enough) and, second, picking up on Kitasono's hints in this direction, that you can even have imagery without preposition (conjunction is enough).<br /><br />What I wanted to show with "three grapes and/on a white plate" was that some words implicitly "prepose" the items (or perhaps simply "pose" or arrange them) by the usage common to the words. You say "plate" and we're waiting to see what's ON it. You, rightly I think, point out that the grammar is even more compulsively standard in this case. We're waiting to PUT something on the plate. So I may need to come up with another example.<br /><br />In the end, I want to understand the image as something that is not yet a thought nor a feeling but the material out of which we construct them. The thing I noticed about "Untested" (now renamed) and Laura's "Advent" was that you can accomplish imagery also out of thoughts and feelings (expressed in ordinary prose sentences) by arranging them in ways that, so to speak, undermine their logic and pathos, placing their imagery in pure (imaginary) suspension.<br /><br />Or something like that.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1102535711197851292004-12-08T20:55:00.000+01:002004-12-08T20:55:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1102533872468023962004-12-08T20:24:00.000+01:002004-12-08T20:24:00.000+01:00Because the grammar of these words themselves, "gr...<I>Because the grammar of these words themselves, "grapes" and "plate", so to speak, put the grapes on the plate for us.</I>Hmmm. So I'm still wondering whether all that's missing from "a shell, a typewriter and grapes" is the verb (explicit or implicit). The "on" in "three grapes on a white plate" seems to imply that the grapes <I>have been put</I> there - that they <I>have been arranged</I> (intentionally or by circumstance). If the verb is all that's missing, then I wonder whether we're just re-articulating the grammatical axiom that complete thoughts need both a subject and an action. (I actually don't, by the way, think that your discussion reduces to such a simple re-articulation, but I'm not sure that the "three grapes on a white plate" demonstrates that it doesn't).Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1102481870649489682004-12-08T05:57:00.000+01:002004-12-08T05:57:00.000+01:00"It made me realize something," I wanted to say."It made me realize something," I wanted to say.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1102479152077213382004-12-08T05:12:00.000+01:002004-12-08T05:12:00.000+01:00Will do. Thanks. By the way, I never got around ...Will do. Thanks. By the way, I never got around to commenting on your "Advent of Breaking Open". Interesting exercise. I liked the second version (lineating more or less according to ordinary grammar) best. It may be realize something. Even when lineating based on prose units (like whole sentences) -- which is how my untested poem also works (with one exception) -- it is sometimes necessary to lineate even at these obvious joints. "Untested" wouldn't work as four prose paragraphs, and "Advent" wouldn't work as one.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.com