tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post113130905223304593..comments2023-06-27T16:51:05.805+02:00Comments on The Pangrammaticon: It's Down to the KittenThomashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131490904632145282005-11-09T00:01:00.000+01:002005-11-09T00:01:00.000+01:00Coming in from left field, a bit. Re: Kasey's narr...Coming in from left field, a bit. Re: Kasey's narrow definition of craft . . .<BR/><BR/>What puzzles me about the discussion here and elsewhere is that I've <I>never</I> participated in a workshop in which it is forbidden to tell the writer (nicely, constructively) that you think certain lines or the poem itself fall into in inauthentic sentimentality or could have been stated in a less familiar/cliched way.<BR/><BR/>In my experience, we toss around comments like that all the time. E.g., "This line works great, but the 'ominous dark clouds' phrase seems pretty familiar me to me. Nice image, but maybe you could say it another way." Or: "There's an interesting tension in the first part of the poem between the casualness of the language and the heightened emotional tenor of the scene; here, however, I find that the poem loses that tension and thus comes across as melodramatic or sentimental."<BR/><BR/>Neither of those of those comments would fit Kasey's definition -- but I hear them all the time in workshops. Sometimes we even argue about those very points. What's merely melodramtic to one of us is sometimes authentically dramatic to another. How the poem strikes the reader emotionally, ethically, etc -- this is something I very much want to know. Indeed, it's vastly more important to me than, say, whether or not someone thinks my line breaks are working well.<BR/><BR/>Not to presume that I speak for all poets -- just that I'd personally find little of interest in a workshop limited to discussion of "meter, lineation, rhyme, etc."Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131490829355191692005-11-09T00:00:00.000+01:002005-11-09T00:00:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131474709817247542005-11-08T19:31:00.000+01:002005-11-08T19:31:00.000+01:00Accept that there can be only one kitten.We must a...Accept that there can be only one kitten.<BR/><BR/>We must accept that the kitten is one.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131431686245813452005-11-08T07:34:00.000+01:002005-11-08T07:34:00.000+01:00Except that there can be only one kitten.Except that there can be only one kitten.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131369218603632202005-11-07T14:13:00.000+01:002005-11-07T14:13:00.000+01:00OK, I agree with most of that. When you say:"that ...OK, I agree with most of that. When you say:<BR/><BR/>"that way is not necessairly crafted according to some workshop alibi such as 'craft'(most worshoppers would find her craft atrocious)--"<BR/><BR/>I think its the first sense of "craft(ed)" that corresponds to my usage. The version of craft in scare quotes is probably the one Kasey is using as an alibi for Oliver?Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8861197.post-1131369034442401002005-11-07T14:10:00.000+01:002005-11-07T14:10:00.000+01:00I think the critical operation I object to is the ...I think the critical operation I object to is the one where "voice" is isolated from "craft" in a way that places it (voice) beyond the reach of the workshop.<BR/><BR/>That's the only function of the (yes, fuzzy) concept of voice I've been able to register. On the other hand, I have a very clear idea of what craft is <I>even beyond Kasey's narrow definition</I>.<BR/><BR/>It is the distinction of voice and craft and the isolation (insulation) of the former from critique, establishing an ultimately inconsquential and, I suppose, decadent (debauched) form of "criticism", that I object to.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Alyssa, but what I think is nonsense is an injunction like "Leave my voice alone; go after my craft, if you must." (The first half in particular.)<BR/><BR/>I'll have think about what I think about "don't take my voice away" or even "take my voice away".<BR/><BR/>I definitely think the thesis of the unimpeachability of Mary Oliver's craft depends on the unimpeachability of her voice. Once the distinction between voice and craft is dropped, we can look at the full variety of ways that poem might be improved.<BR/><BR/>(I'm posting this comment as another from A appears in by mailbox. Be back shortly.)Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.com